oil cooler vs. oil radiator

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madrid
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oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:17 am

Hi :roll:

My car is a 03'TF, 135 model with air conditioned. I live in Spain and I have problems with the overheating of the engine (I had an HGF this year, in january :( ). So, I'm thinking about oil coolers :? . I have seen two alternatives:

- oil cooler inside the engine bay, as seen in the 160 models
- oil cooler (radiator) in the front of the car, before the coolant radiator

I would like to know if there are any differente in the effectiveness of both methods, and if there are any disvantages.

Thanks in advance, guys :roll:
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Geoff.F » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:26 am

Is the 'oil cooler' in the engine bay to 'cool the oil' or to assist in warming the coolant from a cold start.?? My experts considered the latter. The parts cost of this may be 3 times that of the front oil cooler BUT fhe engine was 'dressed' before fitting into the car making it VERY difficult to fit. We decided that this would not be practical.
The front oil cooler is easy to fit but you must specify that you have AC as the fitting may be different. You cannot have one with AC and Steptronic as the gearbox oil cooler takes the 2nd location and space for pipe runs.
Do you suffer from high oil or water temperature ?? If water, then the 'oil cooler' will only make it hotter as there is no additional cooling from the engine bay.
Geoff F.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Chris Tideswell » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:44 am

If your car is still over heating then I think you should look at why it is still doing so, after all there are many F/TF's in Spain and other warm countries that never overheat.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:50 am

Geoff.F wrote:Is the 'oil cooler' in the engine bay to 'cool the oil' or to assist in warming the coolant from a cold start.?? My experts considered the latter. The parts cost of this may be 3 times that of the front oil cooler BUT fhe engine was 'dressed' before fitting into the car making it VERY difficult to fit. We decided that this would not be practical..
Thanks, good advice, one point for the front oil cooler ;)
Geoff.F wrote:The front oil cooler is easy to fit but you must specify that you have AC as the fitting may be different. You cannot have one with AC and Steptronic as the gearbox oil cooler takes the 2nd location and space for pipe runs.
Sure, so, I'll have three coolers in the front of the car. Maybe too much? :?
Geoff.F wrote:Do you suffer from high oil or water temperature ?? If water, then the 'oil cooler' will only make it hotter as there is no additional cooling from the engine bay.
Geoff F.
The high temperature always is in the oil, the water temperature is constant everytime.
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Best regards, from Madrid. Nacho.
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:54 am

Chris Tideswell wrote:If your car is still over heating then I think you should look at why it is still doing so, after all there are many F/TF's in Spain and other warm countries that never overheat.
I have a friend also in Spain with the 160. Driving in the same way at the same time, my oil temperature is hotter than his oil temperature. I supposed that the main difference is the oil cooler.

I try hardly that the oil temperature never gets high, but if you are in a traffic jam, in summer, with very low speeds (or even stopped)... :oops:

That's why I'm thinking in the oil cooler (inside or front) to prevent damages.

Thanks ;)
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Geoff.F » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:24 am

Is the oil 'Hotter' or 'Too Hot' ?? With Steptronic and AC and hard driving then I regularly get 150. It may be an indicator problem however Mobil1 has a 210 Spec.
Geoff F.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:39 am

Geoff.F wrote:Is the oil 'Hotter' or 'Too Hot' ?? With Steptronic and AC and hard driving then I regularly get 150. It may be an indicator problem however Mobil1 has a 210 Spec.
Geoff F.
When the day is hot, or when I drive hard, the oil temperature is around 150. Then I drive carefully to avoid any other increase. I was confident with that temperature, but after the HGF in january I'm afraid that driving constantly around mid oil temperature can damage the gasket.

Comparing my car with the 160 of my friend, his car is always at 120 or a very little more, even with hard driving.
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Rob Bell » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:33 pm

Retrofitting a 160 water-oil cooler to your TF ought to be pretty straightforward - all the mounts are already there on the block - and so long as you get all the associated parts, it all ought to be plug and play. Buy second hand - so long as the donor car hasn't suffered from HGF it all should be pretty easy sailing. If the donor car has had an HGF, then ensure that the radiator-in-a-bath is thoroughly flushed of that nasty oily-mayo residue before fitting.

A front-mounted oil cooler is probably the simplest option. But these are not usually thermostatically controlled, and have the additional problem of introducing a lot of 'dead space' in the form of excessively long oil pipes running to and from the front of the car. One solution used by a friend in Mexico was to mount the rad behind the coolant rad, which will certainly effect the efficiency of the oil-cooler rad, but prevented over-cooling the oil (just as bad, potentially worse than too-hot oil), and even in Mexico, he's happy with the results - more here: http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/DI ... /index.htm - and note that this is fitted to a car fitted with air con, but not, I believe, steptronic semi auto CVT gearbox.

The other option is to use a Laminova after market oil/water cooler. This will almost certainly work out more expensive than the MGR kit, but is probably more efficient. An alternative is to use a R25 diesel Laminova oil cooler - but mounting it in the engine bay is very tricky. The best option is probably to mount it up front, which is Jerry's plan I think :) http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/co ... cooler.htm

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:09 pm

A big thank you to Rob :thumbsu:

I agree with you that the front-mounted cooler has a lot of pipe lenght, and I don't like it so much. I have been talking with a man in an previous MG service, and he told me that he'll fit anything to my car, but he needs every single part (obvious). It's nice to know that the 160's oil cooler is easy to fit.

Maybe the best option will be ask X-part for the 160's oil cooler (and every part involved) and fit it in the 100.000 km service (maybe before christmas).
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Charless » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:10 pm

Why not a temperature equaliser/exchanger so that the bottom end is only ever allowed to be slightly hotter than the top but warms up much sooner and always reduces the temperature differential between oil and water? Cost/complexity?

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Dieter K » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Hi,

how about this one ?
Image

Some former german TF135 owner did this oilsump modifikation with weld works.
From memory he lost about 5 degrees.
(On top left you see an adapter for a second oil temperature sensor)
Another installation was made here.
Text in German only http://www.mgfcar.de/oil_cooler/
Location at the front, wherein I do not think the front installation is much difference versus the rear installation anywhere in the engine bay. Alone the addition oil volume will have some improving effect.
MGF 1.8i, PTS. HEF-MG96
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Geoff.F » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:38 pm

The B&G kit IIRC fits on the LH rear of the radiator. It includes SS pipes and a Thermostat valve at £220. The AC cooler is also on th LH side therefore they did a kit to fit it on the RH.
Having told them my car Spec with full automatic steptronic, they quoted and booked my car in and I brought it up from Switzerland. After several hours I went back to ask why they had not called to say that it was ready. They had started on it just after I dropped it off but found they could not do it because there is the gearbox oil cooler on RH side. A waste of a lot of time and money.
I doubt if X-Part could come up with a oil/water exchanger retrofit kit. They deal in bar code numbers and cardboard boxes. I listed a kit from the parts list and organized it from X-Part.
I discussed the fitting of it with my local MG Motorsports Specialists (who Rob knows well). They had attempted it only once and were not successful. In addition they expressed concern that transferring heat from the oil to the coolant can only raise the coolant temperature that is already critical to being a cause of HGF.
Their alternative solution which they fitted to their cars was to put an overide on the engine compartment cooling fan to reduce bay temperatures. This I have wired into the rear screen heater switch.
The cost of fitting the rear 'oil cooler' would be far more than an a HGF which it is doubtful it would prevent or may in fact cause.
Geoff F.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Chris Tideswell » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:08 am

QED produce this oil to water heat exchanger kit: http://www.qednet.demon.co.uk/rk/oilcool.htm

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Geoff.F » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:00 am

Chris Tideswell wrote:QED produce this oil to water heat exchanger kit:
Never use any oil pipe that is not swaged.
Geoff F.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:45 pm

All your answers are welcome :thumbsu: thank you guys :D
Geoff.F wrote:The B&G kit IIRC fits on the LH rear of the radiator. It includes SS pipes and a Thermostat valve at £220. The AC cooler is also on th LH side therefore they did a kit to fit it on the RH.
Having told them my car Spec with full automatic steptronic, they quoted and booked my car in and I brought it up from Switzerland. After several hours I went back to ask why they had not called to say that it was ready. They had started on it just after I dropped it off but found they could not do it because there is the gearbox oil cooler on RH side. A waste of a lot of time and money.
I doubt if X-Part could come up with a oil/water exchanger retrofit kit. They deal in bar code numbers and cardboard boxes. I listed a kit from the parts list and organized it from X-Part.
I discussed the fitting of it with my local MG Motorsports Specialists (who Rob knows well). They had attempted it only once and were not successful. In addition they expressed concern that transferring heat from the oil to the coolant can only raise the coolant temperature that is already critical to being a cause of HGF.
Their alternative solution which they fitted to their cars was to put an overide on the engine compartment cooling fan to reduce bay temperatures. This I have wired into the rear screen heater switch.
The cost of fitting the rear 'oil cooler' would be far more than an a HGF which it is doubtful it would prevent or may in fact cause.
Geoff F.
Geoff F.: I really apreciate your experiences about the oil cooler. But I'm confused :? if the oil cooler can affect negatively in an HGF, why it is a serie part in the top model (the 160) :o In addition, you say that the fixing is difficult and expensive :( . Well, your opinions and the Rob opinions about the oil cooler are very differents :oops: So, I'm more confused :cry:

On the other hand, the solution of the override in the bay could work. I have the hard top, so I need the rear screen heater switch, but maybe I can use it for the hard top in winter and for the fan in summer :thumbsu:
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:48 pm

charless wrote:Why not a temperature equaliser/exchanger so that the bottom end is only ever allowed to be slightly hotter than the top but warms up much sooner and always reduces the temperature differential between oil and water? Cost/complexity?
yes, if the cost or the complexity are high, it will be not considered ;) Thanx
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by madrid » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:53 pm

Dieter K wrote:Hi,

how about this one ?

Some former german TF135 owner did this oilsump modifikation with weld works.
From memory he lost about 5 degrees.
(On top left you see an adapter for a second oil temperature sensor)
Another installation was made here.
Text in German only http://www.mgfcar.de/oil_cooler/
Location at the front, wherein I do not think the front installation is much difference versus the rear installation anywhere in the engine bay. Alone the addition oil volume will have some improving effect.
Hi Dieter ;) . It seems also difficult to fit :oops: Thanks.
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Helsbyman » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:08 pm

not that it has much to do with this thread but the 145 vvc also had an oil cooler in the rad didn't it
liked the german mod to the sump
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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Chris Tideswell » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:29 pm

helsbymgtf wrote:not that it has much to do with this thread but the 145 vvc also had an oil cooler in the rad didn't it
liked the german mod to the sump
I am sure that no F had a factory fitted engine oil cooler of any description.

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Re: oil cooler vs. oil radiator

Post by Charless » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:15 pm

Chris,
Thanks for the QED link to the oil/water heat exchanger. I liked the look of it but was hoping for more info from QED - such as 'how to' pictures of an easy point to break into the existing pipeworks in the engine bay and lots of testimonials from happy punters! It costs £195 which might be acceptable if it works for ordinary road use - I would need more proof before taking the plunge but I do like the idea.
Does anyone here have one fitted, or know any more about how well it works at raising the oil temperature to start with and then helping keep it down under heavy load? Thanks,
Charles

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